<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<font face="Arial">Hi Ben <br>
<font face="Arial">"Shiny plasma cleaners" have a reason to be
this way. They act<font face="Arial">ually piece of high
technology. The mai<font face="Arial">n</font> problem is
uniformity of the plasma. When I was shopping for plasma
cleaner, which can be used as <font face="Arial">a "glow
discharge" unit also (dual purpose), I ordered demo from
main manufacturers and placed aluma-foil with black marker
lines into the chamber. Results<font face="Arial"> vary
from machine-to-machine. Most popular brand at the time
had highest non-uniformity. <br>
<br>
<font face="Arial">As f<font face="Arial">or my "car<font
face="Arial">bon" - <font face="Arial">I tried to
measure conductivity, but it was difficult because
film is very thin (1.2-1.8 nm). I imagine, I need
to evaporate film over <font face="Arial">gold
electrodes or something like that for good re<font
face="Arial">adings. It is my understanding,
that carbon itself is quite hydroph<font
face="Arial">obic. What make<font
face="Arial">s</font> it hydrop<font
face="Arial">hilic is an uniform layer of
<font face="Arial">biological
water-soluble (hydrophilic) molecule<font
face="Arial">s (protein, DNA etc) on
top of carbon. This layer provides
uniform distribution of liquid, which
is critical in such techniques as
negative staining, shadowing and
cryo-EM. I mainly use my carbon for
negative staining and high-resolution
shadowing (in the past). I do not use
"glow discharge". Most proteins and
DNA stick very well to my carbon
forming very uniform layers. In
difficult cases, I am using
"double-carbon" approach. <font
face="Arial">In rare cases, when
other approaches does not work, I am
using poly-lysine treatment. I spent
a lot of time optimizing
"glow-discharge" in the past and
find it non-scientific because
results are vary greatly and success
essentially depends how dirty your
vacuum evaporator is... this is my
personal experience. Sergey</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font><br>
<br>
</font></font></font></font></font>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/20/2016 11:29 PM,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:benoit.zuber@ana.unibe.ch">benoit.zuber@ana.unibe.ch</a> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CECD44A5-5F4B-4431-A9F6-8A34C76A4C46@ana.unibe.ch"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<meta name="Titre" content="">
<meta name="Mots clés" content="">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered
medium)">
<style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Arial;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Courier New";
panose-1:2 7 3 9 2 2 5 2 4 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:PMingLiU;
panose-1:2 2 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
pre
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Préformaté HTML Car";
margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";}
span.PrformatHTMLCar
{mso-style-name:"Préformaté HTML Car";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Préformaté HTML";
font-family:Courier;}
span.EmailStyle19
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:Calibri;
color:windowtext;}
span.msoIns
{mso-style-type:export-only;
mso-style-name:"";
text-decoration:underline;
color:teal;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:595.0pt 842.0pt;
margin:70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style>
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Dear
colleagues,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Many
thanks for all your answers. I start to get a better picture
of the situation. Sounds like antiques are called glow
discharge, and new shiny machines with touchscreen and
gimmicks are called plasma cleaners but fundamentally they
are not different, provided one can inject a gas of choice.
Possibly, necessary glowing times in antique machines are
longer than in modern machines that generate plasma with
microwaves.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Sergey,
have you measured or estimated the resistivity of your home
made carbon ? And is it hydrophilic ? If not, do you make it
hydrophilic by another mean than plasma treatment before
applying a sample ? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Ben<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family:Calibri;color:black">De : </span>
</b><span style="font-family:Calibri;color:black">3dem
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:3dem-bounces@ncmir.ucsd.edu"><3dem-bounces@ncmir.ucsd.edu></a> au nom de Sergey
Ryazantsev <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:sryazant@ucla.edu"><sryazant@ucla.edu></a><br>
<b>Date : </b>mardi, 20 septembre 2016 22:26<br>
<b>À : </b><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:3dem@ncmir.ucsd.edu">"3dem@ncmir.ucsd.edu"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:3dem@ncmir.ucsd.edu"><3dem@ncmir.ucsd.edu></a><br>
<b>Objet : </b>Re: [3dem] glow discharge vs plasma
cleaning<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF
4.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0cm"
id="MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:Arial">Dear Colleagues<br>
Plasma cleaning is self-explanatory - well, it is
cleaning by plasma, sometime using a dedicated device.
Plasma cleaning requires normally high energy plasma,
which produced using high-frequency generator
(microwave?). Most modern "plasma cleaners" do not use
high-voltage to generate plasma.<br>
<br>
"Glow discharge" is more tricky. Historically, glow
discharge was performed to mitigate hydrophobic
properties of carbon.Often, home-made "glow-discharge"
units were used. Such unit usually constructed using
mechanical pump, some sort of "bell-jar," high-voltage
power supply and discharge electrodes. Residual air
was used to generate a plasma. Such units are simple,
but results sometime inconsistent. "Plasma cleaning"
units at low power settings can be used for more
reproducible "glow-discharge."
<br>
<br>
On philosophical note, speaking about "glow-discharge"
... I never was able to understand how
electro-conductive carbon can hold a "charge"? My
personal theory is that common "carbon" is
contaminated by oil from dirty oil-based
vacuum-evaporators. "Glow discharge" essentially
ionizes residual oil. Oil within the carbon produces
many bad effects on carbon: oil can oxidize (carbon
aging); oil can decompose for different reasons; oil
destabilizes carbon under e-beam etc. From this (my
personal) prospective, "glow discharge" has limited
beneficial effect on pure, clean carbon. In fact, I am
using pure, clean (oil-free) ultrathin carbon for EM
for decades. This carbon is remarkable stable under
the beam and survived freezing etc. It also has very
low background noise because it is not "etched" by
"glow discharge."<br>
<br>
Sergey</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 9/20/2016 11:46 AM, Mike Strauss
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Sergej, <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Just a reminder, because I'm
sure you are aware, but there are other factors
besides the vacuum that affect the results of the
glow discharger (or plasma cleaner in your case).
These include: distance between electrodes,
voltage applied across electrodes, shape of
electrodes, nature of carrier (the thing your
grids are on), type of residual gas in chamber.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I have always assumed that the
name of the instrument depends on its intended
use. So a glow discharger becomes a plasma
cleaner when you leave it on too long and burn off
all the carbon. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">mike<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 7:03
PM, Sergej Masich <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Sergej.Masich@ki.se"
target="_blank">Sergej.Masich@ki.se</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
lang="EN-GB">Dear List, dear
</span>Benoît,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I
have some different experience that can be
wrong though. A colleague and a good friend
of mine from Albuquerque successfully used
his plasma cleaner to glow-discharge carbon
films. I decided to copy his settings in our
Lab and ordered the same model. However,
that model could not be sold to European
customers due to some regulations. I
purchased more expensive model from the same
supplier. It did not work! As the result of
“glow discharge”, I got empty grids, no
traces of carbon. To make a long story
short, we installed a needle valve and a
gauge to control the vacuum degree. We got
hydrophilic carbon at poorer vacuum and no
carbon at better vacuum. Since then, I used
the plasma cleaner for many years to prepare
hydrophilic carbon surface.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">In
my opinion, this also makes sense. The ions
in plasma have longer free path at higher
vacuum. As the result, they have higher
energy that can result in more efficient
removal of the “dirt” from the surface.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I
never read any confirmation of my “theory”
that can be completely wrong but I hope it
will contribute to the discussion.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Sincerely,<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sergej Masich<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">=============================<br>
Dr. Sergej Masich<br>
Dept. of Cell and Molecular Biology<br>
Karolinska Institutet<br>
Box 285<br>
171 77 Stockholm, Sweden<br>
tel: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%28%2B%2946%20-%208%20-%20524%20873%2061"
target="_blank">(+)46 - 8 - 524 873 61</a><br>
mobile: (+)46 - 736 - 833 693<br>
e-mail: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Sergej.Masich@ki.se"
target="_blank">Sergej.Masich@ki.se</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 20 Sep 2016, at
18:33, <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:benoit.zuber@ana.unibe.ch"
target="_blank">benoit.zuber@ana.unibe.ch</a>>
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:benoit.zuber@ana.unibe.ch"
target="_blank">benoit.zuber@ana.unibe.ch</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt">Hi David,<br>
<br>
This could be right. However I
doubt it. Within 20 to 30 minutes
we can completely disintegrate the
carbon of quantifoil grids with
the glow discharge machine set so
that it glows strongly without
sparkling.<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
Ben<br>
<br>
________________________________________<br>
Von: Morgan, David Gene [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:dagmorga@indiana.edu"
target="_blank">dagmorga@indiana.edu</a>]<br>
Gesendet: Dienstag, 20. September
2016 18:12<br>
An: Zuber, Benoît (ANA); <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:3dem@ncmir.ucsd.edu"
target="_blank">3dem@ncmir.ucsd.edu</a><br>
Betreff: Re: glow discharge vs
plasma cleaning<br>
<br>
Ben,<br>
<br>
<br>
Maybe someone else on the list
can shed some light on this, but I
don't know whether the strength of
the plasma created in an EM "glow
discharge device" is comparable to
that of what is called a "plasma
cleaner." I suspect not, but
could be wrong.<br>
<br>
<br>
That said, over zealous use of
a plasma cleaner can remove _all_
the carbon from an EM grid (I have
done this with a lacy carbon
grid), so having too much power
can be a bad thing...<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
David Gene Morgan<br>
Electron Microscopy Center<br>
047D Simon Hall<br>
IU Bloomington<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:812%20856%201457"
target="_blank">812 856 1457</a>
(office)<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:812%20856%203221"
target="_blank">812 856 3221</a>
(3200)<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://iubemcenter.indiana.edu"
target="_blank">http://iubemcenter.indiana.edu</a><br>
________________________________<br>
From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:benoit.zuber@ana.unibe.ch"
target="_blank">benoit.zuber@ana.unibe.ch</a>
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:benoit.zuber@ana.unibe.ch"
target="_blank">benoit.zuber@ana.unibe.ch</a>><br>
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016
12:06 PM<br>
To: Morgan, David Gene; <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:3dem@ncmir.ucsd.edu"
target="_blank">3dem@ncmir.ucsd.edu</a><br>
Subject: Re: glow discharge vs
plasma cleaning<br>
<br>
Hi David and Luiza,<br>
<br>
Many thanks for the explanations.
OK this « makes sense ». But it is
a shame that people use two
different words for the same thing
(good job from the marketing team
though ! ). It would be much
better to use only one term and
then give specific gaz conditions.
So many people are convinced that
glow discharge and plasma cleaning
are two different things and that
you need two different machines.<br>
We have a so-called glow discharge
machine from defunct Balzers. It
still functions perfectly well, it
looks like what people describe as
a glow discharge machine : a glass
cylinder with two metal plates
below and on top, and it has an
needle-valve inlet. We typically
let the inlet in contact with the
air and let a tiny bit of air flow
in to get a constant pressure in
the chamber and thereby have a
reproducible procedure. We can
quite precisely control the
pressure that we want inside.
However if we want to use whatever
gas mixture instead of good old
nitrogen and oxygen, we can just
buy and connect the relevant gas
bottle(s). No need to purchase a
new machine.<br>
If I listened to what so many
people told me, I would have long
bought another machine, which
would probably have been a waste
of money and lab space. I think
people should be more aware of
this before spending their (tax
payer ?) money.<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
Benoît</span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:PMingLiU"><br>
<br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">De
: "Morgan, David Gene" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:dagmorga@indiana.edu"
target="_blank">dagmorga@indiana.edu</a>><br>
Date : mardi, 20 septembre 2016
17:51<br>
À : Benoit Zuber <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:benoit.zuber@ana.unibe.ch"
target="_blank">benoit.zuber@ana.unibe.ch</a>><br>
Objet : Re: glow discharge vs
plasma cleaning<br>
<br>
<br>
Ben,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
They are technically the same
thing _except_ that in common EM
usage, "glow discharge" is done
using ambient gases (i.e., you
just pull a modest vacuum and
create a plasma) while "plasma
cleaning" is done using a specific
mix of gases (Ar, O and with the
Gatan device H) instead of ambient
gases (i.e., you flush the chamber
with specific gases, then pull the
vacuum and create the plasma).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
With more O in the plasma, the
cleaning tends to be stronger
(burns more material in the
sample) and the Ar/O mix prevents
side reactions that can be caused
by the abundant N in the
atmosphere.<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
David Gene Morgan<br>
Electron Microscopy Center<br>
047D Simon Hall<br>
IU Bloomington<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:812%20856%201457"
target="_blank">812 856 1457</a>
(office)<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:812%20856%203221"
target="_blank">812 856 3221</a>
(3200)<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://iubemcenter.indiana.edu"
target="_blank">http://iubemcenter.indiana.edu</a><br>
________________________________<br>
From: 3dem <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:3dem-bounces@ncmir.ucsd.edu"
target="_blank">3dem-bounces@ncmir.ucsd.edu</a>>
on behalf of <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:benoit.zuber@ana.unibe.ch"
target="_blank">benoit.zuber@ana.unibe.ch</a> <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:benoit.zuber@ana.unibe.ch"
target="_blank">benoit.zuber@ana.unibe.ch</a>><br>
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016
11:28 AM<br>
To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:3dem@ncmir.ucsd.edu"
target="_blank">3dem@ncmir.ucsd.edu</a><br>
Subject: [3dem] glow discharge vs
plasma cleaning<br>
<br>
Dear colleagues,<br>
<br>
I often hear people saying: „Did
you treat your grid with glow
discharge or with plasma cleaner?”
Or : ”It is absolutely essential
for application XY to pretreat the
grid with a plasma cleaner and not
by glow discharge!”.</span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:PMingLiU"><br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">Can
anyone explain what the difference
between glow discharge and a
plasma cleaning is?</span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:PMingLiU"><br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">According
to Wikipedia, this is the same
thing (<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glow_discharge"
target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glow_discharge</a>).
The page starts with this
sentence:<br>
“A glow discharge is a plasma<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_%28physics%29"
target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_(physics)</a>>
formed by the passage of electric
current<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_current"
target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_current</a>>
through a low-pressure gas”</span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:PMingLiU"><br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">I
look forward to an interesting
debate.</span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:PMingLiU"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">Ben</span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:PMingLiU"><br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">Prof.
Benoît Zuber</span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:PMingLiU"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">Institute
of Anatomy<br>
University of Bern<br>
Baltzerstrasse 2<br>
Postfach 922<br>
3000 Bern 9<br>
Switzerland<br>
Tel. <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B41%2031%20631%2084%2040"
target="_blank">+41 31 631 84 40</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:benoit.zuber@ana.unibe.ch"
target="_blank">benoit.zuber@ana.unibe.ch</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ana.unibe.ch/%7Eexmo/"
target="_blank">http://www.ana.unibe.ch/~exmo/</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
3dem mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:3dem@ncmir.ucsd.edu"
target="_blank">3dem@ncmir.ucsd.edu</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://mail.ncmir.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/3dem"
target="_blank">https://mail.ncmir.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/3dem</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
3dem mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:3dem@ncmir.ucsd.edu">3dem@ncmir.ucsd.edu</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://mail.ncmir.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/3dem"
target="_blank">https://mail.ncmir.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/3dem</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>3dem mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:3dem@ncmir.ucsd.edu">3dem@ncmir.ucsd.edu</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://mail.ncmir.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/3dem">https://mail.ncmir.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/3dem</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>--------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sergey Ryazantsev Ph.D.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Phone: 310-453-0748<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>E-mail: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:sryazant@ucla.edu">sryazant@ucla.edu</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
--------------------------------------------
Sergey Ryazantsev Ph.D.
Phone: 310-453-0748
E-mail: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:sryazant@ucla.edu">sryazant@ucla.edu</a></pre>
</body>
</html>